Re: [atomic-devel] Getting to full deprecation of the projectatomic/ Github organization

[Farkas Levente <lfarkas lfarkas org>]

Hi,

It'd be very nice to get something useful information about the current 
state and future plan of RH about containerization.
TL;DR is there anybody who knows anything about it?

IMHO the current communication about containerization is a very bad state.
That's the reason why i choose to reply this thread since imho like the 
content of this mail should have to be announced etc.

Let me describe what i see (which may be wrong) about the whole rh 
containerization.


if i'd like to use amazon, google etc there is a full framework for 
everything. i mean registry (virtual) hosts or container runtime 
environment, file storage, sql, nosql storage, messaging logging, 
kubernetes etc...

when i like to use my own eg. private environment than i have to build 
up all of this part of the system. suppose i prefer redhat/centos based 
stuff and plan to be ready in a year. what should i have to do?

probably read the docs...ooohhh which docs and where and what....
here comes the real problems.

so what i need?

a host operating system. which one?
  - rhel/centos 7 vs 8?
  - atomic ?
  - coreos ?
which one to choose? atomic was rh recommendation and after rh buy 
coreos it's not possible to choose. but atomic was also deprecated. or 
not? it's not even documented on atomic homepage that it's deprcated !!! 
just one hidden blog post about it which refer to that coreos will be 
the future. but there is no coreos since the old one is no longer 
available. there is no rhel/centos coreos. but fedora coreos is not even 
in beta stage! only one page long docs about it!
do you really thing than a blog post is the best place to know the 
future plan of the whole rh's host os and the future plan?

is there any roadmap/future plan/direction what we can expect? what's 
your plan with some kind of milestone/timeline etc?

or should i choose rhel? which one? rhel-8 has podman-1.0.0 which is 
totally unusable. so it's better if you do NOT choose rhel/centos 8 over 
7.7 (which is imho nonsense). and there not even an update but let me 
write about it later..

ok i don't know which host os to choose and not really helpful any docs 
about it what's more can't know anything about the future plan.


i need a container framework. which one?
docker as a primary choice but rh do not support it. the latest version 
is 1.13 and won't be updated. even rh's own docs (openshift and 
kubernetes docs also) start with "delete rh's docker, download docker ce 
from docker and install it". really? that's the way? what is the plan 
for the future?


kubernetes, openshift or okd? of course it's depend on the host os and 
what is supported on it. even in openshift and okd (which are rh 
products) none of the use rh's rpm and it's version of docker, podman or 
anything like them. what is the future in this case? is there any roadmap?
just read okd docs (which is owned by rh). it's always refer to 
dockerhub's and not rh's container image. it's always refer to docker 
and not podman.


ocr-i, podman, etc. can we replace docker by this tools? may be in the 
future...but when? what is the roadmap? what a developer should have to 
use in this own developer machines? on rhel/centos-8 nothing is working 
podman is till in 1.0.0.
on rhel/centos 7.7 latest podman can't be use in rootless mode which can 
be the biggest advantage over docker (just see the bugzilla entry about it).
may be fadora working....but after in production you can't use what you 
use for development.
so conclusion:
- atomic depricated
- coreos still not in beta no docs
- rhel/centos 7 not working in rootless mode
- rhel/centos 8 almost nothing is working 1.0.0 version
is there anybody at rh really cares about developer? do you guys try to 
give developers any help? in any way?
i'm not mean in a "steve ballmer developers" way but still ...


how can communicate different containers without --net host? docker's 
--link not implemented. docker network not implemented in rootless mode. 
cni network can't be defined without root access to the system.
anybody use podman for development? use it for with multi container way? 
or everybody use sudo podman (so why it's better then docker? ok i know 
why but i hope you understand the point).


which image to choose from which registry? dockerhub or rh's registries?
have you ever try to use dockerhub mariadb or mongo vs rh's one? why 
they are so different? i understand that rhel is based on rh's rpms etc..
but just refer to the original thread of this mail...
do you/we need ContainerApplicationGenericLabels?
do you will support atomic command? otherwise why we need those labels?
how can a developer test the whole system in his own developer machine? 
have you EVER try it? i don't think so! if yes than you should have to:
- run docker ce from docker
- run podman in root mode
- use dockerhub's images
eg. rh's mariadb image use mariadb scl rpms which run in user 27 which 
mapped to some id outside the container which is the same as the 
rootless user who run the container eg 100027. so root access on the 
developer machine required and addition work by root to create such a 
filesystem setup and be able to use the same container environment as in 
production. which can be the biggest advantage using docker.
and all of the rhel's image use ContainerApplicationGenericLabels and 
the same working model.

and still not mention other part of the container cluster.

yes it's very important that selinux work with contianers but IMHO it's 
much more important to at least something working without selinux. 
selinux was just one example because for me it seems there are a lots of 
useful work in the background but cant see priorities and clear goals 
and roadmaps.

so my question is short:

- is there any high level overview of a private containerized system 
using rh's tool in the next few year?
- is there any plan about it?
- is it public? can someone share it with us?
- is there any roadmap, priorities?
- can someone tell me or much better to everybody a plan/roadmap about 
coreos?
- about okd?
- about podman, buildah etc....

and not to mention which is the right forum to discuss such thing???

thanks in advance.

On 9/27/19 7:20 PM, Colin Walters wrote:
> bubblewrap moved: https://github.com/containers/bubblewrap
> rpm-ostree moved: https://github.com/coreos/rpm-ostree
>
> Of the things remaining...probably the biggest is our docker branch: https://github.com/projectatomic/docker
> I feel like it'd be cleanest if we created a new org for this stuff...queue naming bikeshed, I know.
>
> There's also: https://github.com/projectatomic/ContainerApplicationGenericLabels - did we ever standardize that stuff elsewhere?
>
> I think if we got those bits done we could probably mass-archive the remaining repos.


--
  Levente                               "Si vis pacem para bellum!"